Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Wed Jun 04 2025 09:23 pm

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could identify
blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion
is.

Can you give me an example of blatant evil?

Sexual abuse. Murder. Child abuse.

There's 3. (you can find examples of this in The Bible)

When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to
stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone
really wants that...

meh. I've heard worse ideas.

Would you volunteer yourself and those you love for that?

I don't think you get to volunteer for that.

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Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

I think we are saying the same thing, that the decision does come from within us, so it is ours, and the outcome could, at least in theory,
be known ahead of time.

Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't
want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is
basically getting their wish?

Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
way or another.

We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
taken.

In your bar-fight analogy, our lack of knowledge blinds us, we cannot
know for certain the outcomes of our actions. To someone that can
see, the outcome is certain. The moral implications for those who
see, differ from those who can't.

Ah, but we DO know the moral implications... Do you inherently
'know' it is wrong to hurt or kill someone? Or does someone have
to force you to know it?

However, the issue I think isn't whether we agree on what is
happening, but whether we consider it moral or not. To me, it is not
just for a being which DOES have foreknowledge, to judge those that
don't have foreknowledge for their mistakes.

So no one should be judged at all? If there is a moral absolute,
then THAT is what we are judged against.

As an agnostic, to me, this isn't anything to do with God, but does
reveal the flawed, and deeply troubling ethics of the culture which created this idea.

Just to make sure I follow your train of thought, you mean the
culture that created the idea that we should be held accountable?
Or that there is a God that is above that? I want to know what you
mean...

God in this case is never at fault. No matter how
hidden He is, no matter how much reason and rationality argues against
His existence,

I think reason and rationality actually arugue FOR a Creator. :-)

God presumes no responsibility whatsover for His
rejection. Its the fault of Man. This is a kind of thinking which is still found in that culture today. It is a perverted morality. Those
who claim "meekness" are always the worst.

So I ask again, are you saying that NO ONE should be judged
at all?

The point is that we are all 'guitly' - and God in the form of man,
Jesus the Christ, took the punishment for all that guilt. You say
He takes no responsibility - but I say He took the ULTIMATE
responsibility and took the punishment, the weight, the suffering.

And then He STILL loves you enough to let you decide if you want to
accept the pardon offered or not.

No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity, for
the "sin" of using the mind that God gave them to come to an understandable conclusion. The fact that people think this is just,
is an indication on how the morally righteous can easily be pulled
into believing and doing terrible things.

Two questions - 1) where do you get the moral ground to say that
no one should have to pay for thier sin?

2) Are you equating 'morraly righteous' and terrible acts with
the actual teachings of Jesus?





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DaiTengu wrote to jimmylogan <=-

Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Wed Jun 04 2025 09:23 pm

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could identify
blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion
is.

Can you give me an example of blatant evil?

Sexual abuse. Murder. Child abuse.

There's 3. (you can find examples of this in The Bible)

I don't disagree with you - these ARE blatent evil. My point is
that not everyone would agree with that. What about the
Muslims that cry "death to Isreal - death to America." And the
ones that behead people. They don't call that murder, because
they are following their religion.

My point is that EVERYONE has blatent evil. Jesus said if you
have hate for another you're guilty of murder. That's how
serious God takes things.

When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to
stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone
really wants that...

meh. I've heard worse ideas.

Would you volunteer yourself and those you love for that?

I don't think you get to volunteer for that.

But my point is that people SAY they want God to stop evil in the
world, but only the things they see OTHERS doing. Do you think
it is wrong to steal from someone else? What if they have more
than you, or more than they need. Does that make it okay?

You get my point?


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to Boraxman on Tue Aug 05 2025 04:32 pm

Just to make sure I follow your train of thought, you mean the
culture that created the idea that we should be held accountable?
Or that there is a God that is above that? I want to know what you
So I ask again, are you saying that NO ONE should be judged
at all?

I'm saying that the Middle Eastern Semite culture created this idea, so it is a reflection of their values.

The point is that we are all 'guitly' - and God in the form of man,
Jesus the Christ, took the punishment for all that guilt. You say
He takes no responsibility - but I say He took the ULTIMATE
responsibility and took the punishment, the weight, the suffering.

And then He STILL loves you enough to let you decide if you want to
accept the pardon offered or not.

Again, this makes no sense. This is from Middle Eastern Semitic thinking. IT makes as much sense as people today saying that White people need to be held responsible for what happened in the past, for things we didn't do.

It's an awful, self-hating ideology, and it does not come from God.

No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity, for

Two questions - 1) where do you get the moral ground to say that
no one should have to pay for thier sin?

2) Are you equating 'morraly righteous' and terrible acts with
the actual teachings of Jesus?

I get it from myself. God is going to burn me for eternity, for something I DIDNT DO. Well, since I don't believe this is actually the case, I don't see it as a reflection of God, but of the people who think this is just.

YOU are saying this is just, so YOU believe this. It is YOU who is passing on moral accountability and responsibility.

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